Resource Type: Films

This clip comes from the BBC series: Pilgrimage – The Road to the Scottish Isles.

The Pilgrims attend Vespers – a Catholic evening service at a Benedictine Abbey. Candles flicker and incense fills the air as the monks sing the liturgy in Latin.

Laurence and Nick are profoundly moved by the traditional service. Laurence describes it as beautiful, meditative and exactly what he had hoped to experience on the Pilgrimage. For Nick, the experience reminded him of services he had attended as a boy, and felt the Latin gave the worship a majesty and dignity that he admires.

But Will is disappointed. He thought the service was repetitive and it made him want to go to sleep.

Watch full episodes on BBC iPlayer.

Transcript

Pilgrimage Moments: Vespers

Narrator: Eight services are celebrated at the Abbey every day. They're at the core of the monks daily lives. Almost every service is held in Latin, the common language of the Roman Catholic Church, using Gregorian chants, which originated in the Middle Ages. The pilgrims are invited to attend Vespers, the evening service.

Laurence: I thought that was absolutely beautiful. I thought it was so movingly spiritual, really, really meditative. That was absolutely why I wanted so much to do this journey. That was exactly what I was hoping to experience.

Nick: That service really was the first time that I'd been sort of moved on this pilgrimage. It was in Latin for me. That's what I was sort of used to, in a way, when I was a boy. And Latin just gave it the sort of majesty and the dignity that I admire so much, really.

Will: It was just quite repetitive music. It was almost like I was going to fall asleep at some point, you know? I felt disappointed because there was no messages either, like if there was maybe prayers or something in between. It could have like maybe, you know, touched me in some way, if that makes sense. But I didn't I didn't get any of it, to be honest.

Pilgrimage Moments: Vespers

Video length - 03.09

This clip comes from the BBC series: Pilgrimage – The Road to the Scottish Isles.

The Pilgrims have just attended a Catholic service at a Benedictine Abbey which was conducted entirely in Latin. Scarlett initiates a lively – sometimes emotional – discussion with the Pilgrims about the language used in religious services.

Laurence, Nick and Shazia all enjoyed the service in Latin, but Scarlett and Will wanted to understand what was being said, and feel personally involved.

Laurence suggests that listening to the service in Latin engages a person’s intellect differently. This viewpoint provokes a reaction from Scarlett and Will, who highlight the importance of inclusivity in religious practises, regardless of educational background.

Eventually, they reach a resolution, exchange apologies and toast their appreciation of each other’s perspectives. The exchange highlights the diversity of spiritual journeys and religious views within the group, and the importance of listening.

Watch full episodes on BBC iPlayer.

Transcript

Pilgrimage Moments: Latin or English Worship?

Narrator: After vespers and over their baked potatoes, the pilgrims discuss whether to go to any of the other services.

Scarlett: There's a service in the morning that's not in Latin, so it's in English. Oh, wow. So if anyone wants to go to that. So we've experienced the Latin one and then we can know what was being said.

Shazia: Then there's also a service at 450 in the morning. And I think that's a once in a lifetime experience to it.

Shazia: Laurence, are you going there at four? No, because I had such a perfect experience today. I don't want to do that again. I don't want to risk there being another experience that didn't actually work in the same way. Quite right.

Nick: I enjoyed today enormously. It takes me back to the old days. That's a proper, dignified, majestic service.

Scarlett: Do you feel like it's better being in Latin than in English? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Really?

Nick: You don't have a great opera aren't in English who wants to understand in a way.

Shazia: You don't need to understand it. It's just the feeling you get from it.

Nick: Exactly.

Scarlett: I sort of got, like, lost a little bit, you know, when it was happening. I love going to a service where I feel like I understand what's being said and sort of try and put it in a what's happening in my life and whether I can take anything from it. And. Yeah.

Will: Yeah. Because the words mean the words mean a lot to me. I fell asleep halfway through it.

Shazia: You were in a liminal state? Yeah, it's a meditation. It is a meditation. I'm not sure whether it has the same power when it is in English. You know, there was a barrier. Are you saying in English it's going to be less powerful? Well, you engage your intellectual. Well, I.

Scarlett: Feel like it's up to the person, isn't it? Nobody can say it's more powerful being in Latin, because that isn't what church is about, and that isn't what religion and faith is about. It's individual as a person. And obviously I didn't go to fancy school. I can't speak Latin, but I can speak a little bit of English.

Shazia: But we I mean, you know, none of us are following it in Latin.

Will: I just don't get why there's like, such a like it's better that it's like that. It's like this and it's purer and that's.

Shazia: No, no one's saying that. No, it's it's.

Will: I did hear that a bit.

Shazia: No, no, but it's you know, Nick finds it purer for him.

Louisa: I think Nick was brought up with it all in Latin. So for him, that is how he. Oh, no.

Scarlett: I don't think it was Nick that I think it was Lawrence's comment of that. It's more intellectual when something's Latin that sometimes. No, no, no, no, no and will find that really that's not what I said. Because, you know, just because we didn't go to a posh school, it doesn't mean that we don't or we don't understand things. It just means that we feel things a little bit different.

Shazia: That's absolutely not what I said. I said, no, no, wait but I think, no, no, Monty, please. Right. What I said was, when you hear it and you can understand it, you engage your intellect. I didn't say it's more intellectual. I think it's absolutely all about everyone doing it their own way, for sure, and not judging other people's way of doing.

Shazia: Listen, I'm Muslim, and I was terribly moved by this.

Shazia: We're not. You know, I'm not saying that there is a better way or not, but.

Scarlett: I was trying to.

Shazia: Defend you are both Anglicans and this was a Catholic service. And Anglicanism is in English. That's the whole point of it.

Will: I'm just surprised by your reaction.

Shazia: But listen, I'm surprised your not at all backing down. You're not at all. I accept your opinion. I'm surprised you're not just a little understanding.

Shazia: We're arguing over a little bit of language, which is, unfortunately, something that always happens with religion. Yeah. You know, there are a couple of words that that, you know, didn't, didn't land. Yeah. As far as the room went. And I apologise deeply for that because. Well, that's actually.

Scarlett: Very much.

Louisa: Appreciated.

Shazia: You know, I am absolutely here to support everybody's religion and there's no judgment attached to it.

Nick: Everybody's got to fight their own corner.

Shazia: They do the best.

Nick: Of their ability.

Scarlett: I feel like we need to have a little toast before we got to bed. Just saw that we're all all right together. Cheers.

Monty: Cheers. Cheers. Cheers, guys.

Scarlett: Oh, this is our first heated debate. I didn't realize the family now. Yeah, we've got a proper argument.

Shazia: I can't wait for you to come to the mosque.

Shazia: It's looking good. Looking good, isn't it?

Pilgrimage Moments: Latin or English Worship?

Video length - 04.36

This clip comes from the BBC series: Pilgrimage – The Road to Istanbul.

The Pilgrims visit a cultural centre dedicated to Sufism – an ancient mystical form of worship that embraces all forms of Islam. Once banned by Turkish authorities, the centre now warmly welcomes people of all backgrounds, regardless of their religious beliefs.

The Pilgrims enjoy a communal meal featuring dishes from different regions of Turkey. Amar is blind, so Dom describes the various dishes on his plate.

After the meal they join the evening dhikr prayers where participants dress in traditional clothing, play music and chant in devotion to God. Men stand in a circle, and move in unison as they sing, creating an impressive spectacle. The Pilgrims find the experience incredibly moving, describing it as transcendent, extraordinary and profoundly spiritual. Even staunch atheist Dom calls it, “the powerful religious thing I’ve ever seen”.

Watch full episodes on BBC iPlayer.

Transcript

Pilgrimage Moments: A Sufi Experience

Narrator: The other pilgrims are visiting a cultural center dedicated to Sufism. An ancient mystical form of worship that embraces all forms of Islam. Local guide. Bushra greets them.

Local Guide: Welcome. Hi there. Hello.

Dom: How are you? Nice to meet you. Here you go.

Narrator: Once banned by Turkish authorities, interest in Sufism has grown in recent years.

Dom: You've got everything here like a school and a place to eat. It's like a center.

Local Guide: Yes, exactly. It's like a community center. It's called Khulia. In Arabic. We have like, a place to eat. We have a library. We have a place where students go and learn, and we have Jahamey, you know, the center to pray.

Adrian: And it's for Sufi Muslims?

Local Guide: Yeah. Uh, actually, no, it's open to everybody.

Amar: As long as you believe in God.

Local Guide: If you don't believe in God, you can also come in. Everybody is welcome. Yeah. Everybody is welcome.

Narrator: As guests of honor. The pilgrims are invited to a communal meal before evening prayers.

Local Guide: So we're going to go this place. This is actually the men's dining room and the women's are over there. But we're going to do it together this time. Oh that's nice. Normally we are separated during the meals.

Dom: And that's not a problem ladies.

Local Guide: No because you're the guests.

Adrian: Oh, that looks amazing. Oh, it looks wonderful.

Dom: Let me just tell you, our things are really looking up. Really? Yeah.

Local Guide: So our dervish ladies have prepared for your traditional Turkish food from all over the countries, actually, from the east, from, like the, like sea region, from the middle. So you will see pastry, you will see like the green, like the leaves and soft. Yeah. Meatballs and everything. Uh, you have like a special soup.

Amar: I hope you don't have a rule that says you must eat everything.

Local Guide: You have to finish your plate. Turkish mother said this.

Adrian: This is the best meal we've had.

Dom: It is incredible. The way to your heart is from your stomach.

Dom: Definitely with me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Edwina: Come this. This is good. Yes.

Dom: This is wonderful. It is. This is magic.

Dom: What you got there. Fried pickles.

Dom: Fried pickles.

Dom: Think I am a Sufi? I really, genuinely think you were.

Dom: Born to be.

Dom: If I enjoy the show.

Dom: Then I'm in. Then. Then I'm in.

Dom: See, this is absolutely fabulous. Proper food.

Amar: Oh my goodness. I don't know what. Sweet. What's not. Is this.

Dom: Random? Okay, these two are sweet. This is the spicy kofta okay. That's a sort of chickpea. Okay. That's vine leaves. Yeah. And these are stuffed peppers. Thank you. Okay.

Dom: Oh, it's that good?

Dom: I'm telling you right now that you can tell the Sufi religion has gone absolutely to the top of the charts. I mean, in the pilgrim state.

Narrator: Evening prayers are about to begin. Known as the Zika worshipers dress in traditional clothing, play music, and chant in devotion to God.

Local Guide: So what you're going to watch is this in Quran, God says, repeat my name hundreds of times, and when you repeat my name, I will repeat your name. So you watch. You're going to watch is like a man all in circles, and they're going to chant the names of Allah loudly with music. And when you repeat it, it's like sending the armies of Allah to your heart in order to cleanse it from the evil things. That's nice and get closer to him.

Dom: And what would we do as visitor? Do we watch? We can't watch. We don't partake.

Local Guide: If you want to participate, you can do. But just try to, uh. Be careful not to just, um.

Dom: Get in the way.

Local Guide: Right? Yeah, get in a way.

Dom: Oh.

Local Guide: That be a good imitator?

Amar: Imitator?

Dom: Okay, good. Yeah. Okay.

Local Guide: So if you want to follow me. Lovely. Upstairs.

Dom: Thank you so much.

Pauline: When you pray.

Dom: Catholics often pray. You know, what do you do? And Jesus, it's this. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Dom: I am genuinely quite excited. It's literally like. It's like a gig's about to kick off. I really like this. Here we go. Ready?

Dom: Now they're really going for it.

Adrian: Really bending down a long way.

Pauline: I can see how somebody partaking in that would leave in a state of bliss, because it's transcendent when they all move and sing and chant together. It was just head and shoulders above anything else that we have experienced.

Adrian: I thought it was an extraordinary, you know, if I live near here, I'd just come all the time. I just thought it was such a great spectacle, apart from the the spiritual aspect of it, which I thought was profound. I mean, I can just imagine the release and, you know, whatever was on your mind, you know, you just by going through all that and knowing all that, you just get so much peace out of it. It was all worth it to see the mask of cynicism slide from Don Jolies face, as he was absolutely entranced by it.

Dom: I thought that was the most powerful religious thing I've ever seen. It was incredible. It was like a heartbeat.

Local Guide: Exactly.

Local Guide: You coordinated with your heart.

Dom: I was going, I was like, well, the breath like that.

Local Guide: It's like natural.

Dom: And because they're all wearing the same clothes, it's all in unison like that. It was amazing. It was just brilliant. We're probably a bit more cynical than other things. And the fact that we both love that.

Dom: Yeah.

Dom: You've done well.

Edwina: You really have cracked two.

Dom: You've cracked two hard nuts. That was probably the most extraordinarily powerful religious thing I've ever been to, but it kind of didn't make me feel religious. But just as a religious experience and service, that was absolutely 100% the best thing I've ever been to, you know? And I've come away thinking Sufism, you know what? If I had to, probably the one I'd go for.

Pilgrimage Moments: A Sufi Experience

Video length - 08.56

This clip comes from the BBC series: Pilgrimage – The Road to Istanbul.

Edwina, Amar, and Pauline embark on a solemn visit to the remains of the Crveni Krst concentration camp in Serbia – a memorial to humankind’s continued inhumanity. This site bears witness to the unfathomable cruelty endured by 30,000 individuals of Jewish, Serbian, and Romani descent at the hands of German forces during World War II. They see the bullet holes still in the walls where people were executed, and discover chilling facts about the camp’s history,

Edwina – who is Jewish – reflects on her upbringing in a post-war world marred by profound trauma. Pauline talks about the importance of acknowledging what happened at the concentration camp instead of just moving on.

Edwina concludes with the thought that places like the Crveni Krst camp are a challenge to faith. How could God let it happen?

Watch full episodes on BBC iPlayer.

Transcript

Pilgrimage Moments: The Bullet Holes

Narrator: Across the city, Edwina has brought Ahmer and Pauline to a monument to more modern conflict, a site that stands as a memorial to man's continued inhumanity. The Seveni Krust concentration camp.

Edwina: Oh, I can see the swastika. Jesus. Excuse me. We are standing in front of one of the smaller barracks. And over the door there is a swastika and Wache. And then. And ss. SS, isn't it? It is. So that's probably been the SS office.

Edwina: Mhm.

Edwina: But it looks like they got us a little gift shop.

Narrator: During the Second World War, a total of 30,000 people of Jewish, Romani and Serbian origin were held within this camp by German forces.

Amar: So is this where people were executed? Yes.

Pauline: It's incredibly humbling and devastating. It's extraordinary to see the marks where the bullets hit there that had gone through a person and executed it.

Amar: So you can see bullet marks.

Pauline: Do you want to come down and touch it?

Edwina: Yeah. You go down.

Pauline: Yeah. You you you you stay here. Yeah. I know it's upsetting you. So that's bullet. Bullet holes.

Amar: Oh, wow. In there.

Pauline: Yeah.

Amar: If they can make a hole in the wall.

Pauline: You know.

Amar: Like how big they are.

Pauline: Could you have you.

Edwina: The world in which I grew up was one that was badly traumatized by the Second World War. Wherever you looked, there were bomb sites and three legged dogs. But also the Jewish community, of course, had lost so many people. Lots of things people didn't talk about. Lots of pain. It wasn't until much later that we realized what they had all been through.

Narrator: In 1942. 105 prisoners escaped from this camp. The first time an escape had been successful in mainland Europe. The response from the German army was brutal.

Pauline: The Nazis implemented a policy of killing 100 Serbian hostages for every German soldier killed, and killing 50 for every soldier wounded in Serbia. They executed over 10,000 people on nearby Banja hill.

Amar: Can you see people's pictures here?

Pauline: Oh, yes.

Edwina: Yes. Let me describe. There's an old man in a fez with a bristling moustache. Maybe he's an old soldier. There's a handsome man in a smart suit and a moustache. What's striking is the different ages of people. And young.

Pauline: Old people.

Amar: Wow.

Edwina: When the 10,000 were shot, they were shot very publicly because that was a warning. You try this again. This is what will happen. Not just that you'll die, but you will cause the death of others. What was it? A hundred times as many.

Pauline: Yeah, yeah. We're going to visit lots of places of worship on this pilgrimage, but it seems to me that places like this concentration camp should also be mandatory for anyone who is is making that kind of journey. Because this too is testament to what we must also acknowledge. It's not always just let's say hallelujah and move on. You got to mark it.

Edwina: A place like this is a challenge to faith because if God exists and God is good, how could God let something like this happen? That's not the way I see it. So the way I see it is that we all have to take responsibility for our actions. There was a lot of bravery here, a lot of courage here. But in the end, it's a place of brutality and destruction. It's very, very sad. Do you know what? If I'd been in charge, I'd have burned the whole place to the ground. And I would have built a garden.

Pilgrimage Moments: The Bullet Holes

Video length - 05.06

This clip comes from the BBC series: Pilgrimage – The Road to Istanbul.

The Pilgrims follow the Sultan’s Trail to the Church of the Holy Virgin Mary in rural Serbia, to mark a significant day in the Serbian Orthodox calendar: the Birth of Mary, Holy Mother of God. Serbs are the only Christians to mark the day with a religious festival called a Slava – which is a reinterpretation of an ancient pagan custom.

Edwina describes the Church to Amar, who is blind.

Dom departs the service, reflecting on his discomfort in group settings, questioning if he’s yet to find his true community. But Adrian finds the ritual comforting and uplifting, and compares the Orthodox service to the Catholic ceremonies he is more used to.

Watch full episodes on BBC iPlayer.

Transcript

Pilgrimage Moments: The Holy Virgin Mary

Narrator: Back together and back on the right path. The pilgrims have made it through the forest. On the Sultans Trail has brought them to the church of the Holy Virgin Mary. On a special day in the Serbian Orthodox calendar. The birth of Mary, the Holy Mother of God. The day is marked with a Slava, a special religious festival that brings together family, friends and pilgrims.

Fatima: Coming through the door is a little step in.

Narrator: Serbs are the only Christians to celebrate Slava, a reinterpretation of an ancient pagan custom. The celebration dates back to medieval times.

Narrator: Halfway through the service, Dom leaves.

Dom: Kind of like the chanting. But enough's enough really. Like after a bit I thought, right, I get the gist. I think there is an essential human need for people to want to get together and be as one, and maybe looking to something higher than them, but I just don't have it. It's not. I think I'm better or anything. I just don't like being part of a group. It's never done it for me, but maybe I haven't found the right one.

Narrator: But for Catholic Adrian, the ritual feels comforting.

Adrian: I like being on my own in churches normally because at home I take a pew and just sit there and relax and think the Orthodox Church just sort of stand there. So in a way, it lends itself more to being with other people, of people standing all around you, and it feels nice and full and sort of quite intimate. After a while, I go into sort of a focused sort of state, and positive thoughts flooded into me, positive thoughts about my life and about, you know, my loved ones and all that. I've found it quite uplifting, really, in its own way.

Fatima: We were at a tiny school and we had one of those little round discs on our tounge. They get a fistful of bread.

Pauline: You can have a spoonful of the Blood of Christ area. And the wine. And yeah.

Fatima: It's fascinating really, but the younger children get to mill about. I enjoyed it, I thought it was nice to be amongst the old artwork on the wall as well.

Pauline: Beautiful, really beautiful.

Pilgrimage Moments: The Holy Virgin Mary

Video length - 03.50

This clip comes from the BBC Series: Pilgrimage – The Road to Istanbul.

Mim finds a moment of solitude during the pilgrimage to perform morning prayer. He finds it a challenge to say the five daily prayers of the Muslim religion, but tries to pray at least once a day, before leaving home in the mornings. It not only calms him, but also allows him to express gratitude and thanks. He affectionately describes the prayer mat that has been with him through thick and thin for ten years.

Watch full episodes on BBC iPlayer.

Transcript

Pilgrimage Moments: Morning Prayer

Narrator: Mim too takes time to connect with his faith.

Mim: You know, within Islam, everybody says, you know, you got to pray five times a day and I'll put my hands up and I say, I don't pray five times a day. I sometimes don't have time. But what what gives me peace of mind and what I've been doing as a regular occurrence since I was young is at least praying once before I leave my house. It levels me out a little bit, you know. It calms me down. It makes me more peaceful. It's just a way of expressing thanks and gratitude as well. This prayer matt I've used for about ten years of my life. This definitely, probably still got some of my tears in there, but also can't really capture like smiles and what not. But it's definitely shared moments like that. So this has been there through thick and thin.

Pilgrimage Moments: Morning Prayer

Video length - 01.25

This clip comes from the BBC Series: Pilgrimage – The Road to Santiago.

Patron of Humanists UK, Ed gives his fellow Pilgrims a description of what it means to be a Humanist. He says it is different to being just an atheist – someone who doesn’t believe in God – because you can be an evil atheist; Humanists strive to be good and have morality. The conversation turns to where goodness and morality come from: is it God? Do Christians have a monopoly on morality?

Watch full episodes on BBC iPlayer.

Transcript

Pilgrimage Moments: A Humanist Explanation

Narrator: As a journalist. Rath wants to discover more about Ed's beliefs. Ed is a patron of humanists UK.

Raphael: So atheist was was something I thought that I discovered. And then Ed goes and throws a curveball with this humanist thing. So I mean, I don't know what a humanist is and whether it's the same as an atheist or a Christian.

Ed: A humanist believes that one should live a good life. So without a belief in any otherworldly or supernatural being or presence, that one can still and one should still lead a good life.

Raphael: How does that differ from being an atheist then?

Ed: There's nothing to atheism other than saying that there's no God. You know you can be an evil atheist, right?

Raphael: But a humanist is a humanist.

Ed: Who believes that one should still strive to be good and we should still have morality.

Kate: The stuff he's talking about, about moral compass and about wanting to do good. I think that the motivation to do that, I think, comes from God. That's what I would say. That's where we would differ.

Ed: And that's and that's okay. And while I think she's a lovely individual.

Kate: Who thinks I'm.

Ed: Wrong, I'm very good. No, I know, but here's the thing. It's not that I'm offended by that statement.

Kate: Now, of course, but.

Ed: It's this idea that Christians own those values.

Kate: No, I don't think we own those values.

Ed: When you use terms like Christian values of goodness. It makes it sound like they are Christian values. That fact is, they are just good values.

Debbie: I know a lot of people that are totally hypocritical that go to church every Sunday and pray and say, I'm a really good Christian, and they're really horrible people.

Kate: I absolutely agree with you. For me, that's not what going to church is about. And for lots of Christians that I know, actually going to church is about saying I'm a rotter. I'm not a good person. I've fallen short of all expectations and I'm trying to be better. And that's what when I go to church and pray,

that's what's in my mind. That's why I say, forgive me just a minute. So that's why when I say forgive me my sins, that's why I say that. Because I don't think. Because Christians don't think they're perfect. We are deeply flawed human beings.

Neil: One of the philosophies of people who are Christian is that God empowered mankind to make decisions for themselves. So God doesn't sit up wherever you imagine he does and and wave a magic wand and make good people. That's not how it happens. There's really good, brilliant, great people who will never believe in God. And there's really amazing, God fearing people in positions of power who are out and out evil.

Raphael: I see myself as somebody who cares about people, cares about mankind, and I believe good's in everyone. And I'm an ignorant and I have no followers.

JJ: Are you making up your own religion?

Raphael: Because I have, I have, I have no followers.

JJ: Religion. Because that felt like it was casting his net out. I have no followers. But please, somebody follow me.

Raphael: I like Ed's stance. Humanist. What it stands for. Take God out of the equation and I think you've got a good belief. I think he's kind of on the right track. It's kind of more where I'd be leaning to than Christianity.

Ed: I would hope that at least Kate and Heather understood my perspective and knew that I wasn't out to rid the world of religion. I don't have some Stalinist attitude to, you know, that we should burn down all the churches. I don't feel that way, and I just wanted to make sure that they knew that.

Pilgrimage Moments: A Humanist Explanation

Video length - 03.49

This clip comes from the BBC series: Pilgrimage – The Road to Santiago.

Raphael and Kate have a thought-provoking discussion about their different views on faith on religion. Raphael feels a sense of unease when he looks at a church, seeing it as an institution associated with manipulation and control. But Anglican Priest Kate is keen to distinguish between religion and faith: in her view, religion is about control, rules, and extremism; but faith is a dialogue, a quest, a journey.

The conversation turns to hope, because Raphael’s perspective is rooted in his experience of wrongful imprisonment, when hope, not God, kept him going. But Kate sees hope as an embodiment of God.

Watch full episodes on BBC iPlayer.

Transcript

Pilgrimage Moments: Hope Versus Faith

Kate: It struck me that there's a fear about this whole faith God thing.

Raphael: It always happens to me. Whenever I approach a church, my heart starts to race. I start to get this kind of tingle that makes me feel I don't want to go in there, and I know it's just a building, and I know a building doesn't represent the people that go in there, but I do see it as a place where they manipulate and controlled people and have done and still do. Yeah, sure. Um, and that generates this fear in me.

Kate: Religion is all the things you're talking about control, extremism, those rules. I will subjugate you. Whereas faith is much more where the angle I'm coming from about the conversation, about the question, about the journey. Are you.

Raphael: Religious?

Kate: I wouldn't describe myself as religious, but you're a priest.

Raphael: You have to be religious. Everything I know about the godly stuff is that priests are religious.

Kate: It's semantics.

Raphael: It's words are destroying my faith. You're destroying my faith in my belief in what? You know, it's really interesting. I it's really interesting that you say you're not religious.

Kate: I would say I'm of the Christian faith, not of the Christian religion. That's why for me, those buildings are beautiful, don't get me wrong, but I don't feel particularly holy when I go into that building. It's a building. I feel holier and now talking to you because I see God reflected in you. Because I'm sat here having this conversation.

Raphael: I'm godly, am I? Of course you are. What do you mean by that?

Kate: I see God reflected in you. So when I talk to you, that's a that's a faith experience for me.

Raphael: The way you describe it is beautiful, but I just can't get over that hurdle that you pick and choose what you want from your faith.

Kate: I think the issue is for you is that you're about tangibility. So you're about this is a table, this is a glass, this is a person. And the idea that there would be something that isn't tangible, the idea that you cannot go here is God, it's so far out of your comfort zone.

Raphael: So interesting. But what was the one thing that got me through it in prison? Hope. Hope doesn't exist. That's not something that's tangible. It's just the word. I could never grab hope so, but I look for it and I would.

Kate: I would say, I would say that where you say the word hope, I would say the word God, that God is hope.

Raphael: Kate's way of describing what got me through the many years that I was in prison. I would say hope. Hope was key to everything. I hope that tomorrow would be the day I got the letter that says something's going to happen. I hope the next day this. I hope the next day that the way Kate said it was, God, I don't agree. It's just not what got me through. You know.

Kate: I have to be really honest. When we started on this journey, I didn't really like Rath. I thought, oh no, we've got one here, we've got one here who's just going to be grumpy about me being a Christian the whole way around. But actually I realised now and I should have realised then that it comes from a deep fear. I think the poor guy's just had a really bad experience of religion, and I can totally get why he's angry about religion, because I'm angry about religion too. And when I hear people have done things in the name of God, I think God wants nothing to do with that stuff. God's not about control and manipulation and and war and and terror. God's not about any of that. God is as angry about all that stuff as Rath is. Cheers, cheers, mum. Buon Camino.

Raphael: As as different as she is to other Christians who would try to convert you. There is something in me that says, hold on a minute. She's doing it in a cleverer way. So where she's now telling me my hope is a God. I hear what she says, but it's her clever way, trying to make me believe in something that I don't believe in.

Pilgrimage Moments: Hope Versus Faith

Video length - 04.34